Dear Friends,

This is my first post and I appreciate any help any of you can give me. My
knowledge of web design is minimal, but I do have a basic understanding. The
fundamentals of HTML and web design as a whole are pretty clear. My weakness,
however, shows in the fine detailed issues that come up throughout the course
of designing a website, and much of it may have to do with a lack of knowledge
with the software I'm using. I love Dreamweaver CS3. It's an excellent
program. I'm totally hooked!

I'm in the process of building a website for a friend who owns a retail gift
store. The site has a total of 41 pages. The URL is
http://www.southerncharmgifts.net

It has taken me over a month to get this site to the place where it is now.
I've learned a TON about web design, CSS, and the Dreamweaver program itself.
I've been able to work through many of the issues I've had, but I'm stuck on a
few things:

1. Browser Issues.

I've found it hard to sync the content between browsers: namely IE and
Firefox.

For example:

In IE the sub-menus wrap (as I want them to), but in Firefox they do not. But
in Firefox the sub-menu box borders are visible, even though the text
doesn't wrap, but it's obviously in the dimensions that are seen in IE.

In Firefox, the sub-menus are too far from the parent. It looks bad. But
they are perfect in IE.

The background image is centered in IE between the menus and adverts, but not
in Firefox. How do I get the background image to remain between the menus and
adverts? (Note: There is no background on the home page. Also, wider screens
seem to move the background in IE, too.)

In the horizontal menu "Category" the sub-menu item "Babies" cannot be
selected in Firefox. In IE it works.

There are gaps between items in the horizontal sub-menu. It appears to be
related to items not wrapping, but it doesn't seem that enlarging the sub-menu
box causes the item to not wrap. For example, under "Category" "Candles &
Fragrances" is wrapped and it seems to be the reason why there is a large gap
between "Babies" and "Eyewear." If I can find a way to get Candles &
Fragrances to NOT wrap it might remove the gap.

2. CSS Issue.

I can't find a way to have the sub-menu hover underline instead of
highlight the items. I want it to underline.

3. "False" Issue.

In the vertical sub-menu "by CATEGORY" the word "false" shows up just
below the word "Babies." (It's hard to see, but it's there.)

THANKS!!

On 3/7/08 12:10 AM, "Mark 8:36" wrote:

> http://www.southerncharmgifts.net

Go through these errors and correct them, then we'll take a look:

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=ht...harmgifts.net/
http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/v...utherncharmgif
ts.net/

In particular, fix this problem with the background music:
autostart="true"

That should be autostart="false"

--
Sonjay

>I'm in the process of building a website for a friend who owns a retail gift
store.
>The site has a total of 41 pages. The URL is http://www.southerncharmgifts.net

It is unfortunate that you started working on a production site without first
having a grasp of the techniques and tools required. You wouldn't start
building cabinets until you had a basic knowledge and experience with wood and
woodworking tools, or you'd end up with a large pile of sawdust. And
unfortunately that's where you are heading with this site. You've made the
basic mistake of laying out the site using AP divs. AP Divs should be used
rarely if ever, and only for special purposed. They are not a primary layout
tool. Honestly, I would start over from scratch. But first, spend the next few
weeks or months learning proper layout techniques and working through tutorials
before actually starting on a production site. Good luck.

[q]Originally posted by: bregent
>I'm in the process of building a website for a friend who owns a retail gift
store.
>The site has a total of 41 pages. The URL is http://www.southerncharmgifts.net

It is unfortunate that you started working on a production site without first
having a grasp of the techniques and tools required. You wouldn't start
building cabinets until you had a basic knowledge and experience with wood and
woodworking tools, or you'd end up with a large pile of sawdust. And
unfortunately that's where you are heading with this site. You've made the
basic mistake of laying out the site using AP divs. AP Divs should be used
rarely if ever, and only for special purposed. They are not a primary layout
tool. Honestly, I would start over from scratch. But first, spend the next few
weeks or months learning proper layout techniques and working through tutorials
before actually starting on a production site. Good luck.[/q]

Ok, forgive me for doubting what you said here, but this is the first I've
heard of this. In the limited research and reading I've done in the last few
years I've never heard anyone say this about APdivs. Because I think
divs/layers are an excellent tool in Dreamweaver. And with the exception of my
background image problem, which probably can be fixed by changing the
perameters, the only problems with the website are the menus. Everything else
looks good on both IE and Firefox.

So my question for the rest of the forum is: "Is this true or is this
bregent's personal opinion?" No offense meant bregent, but equating a months+
worth of extremely hard work to sawdust is rather disturbing. I just want to
make sure what you're saying is the general consensus before I take this too
seriously.

Thanks for your input, though. I appreciate your honesty. Starting over from
scratch isn't an option and the owner of the website likes my work. But I'll
keep these things in mind for the future. Take care.

> In the limited research and reading I've done in the last few
> years I've never heard anyone say this about APdivs.

Your limited research has failed to uncover the essence of proper technique
in creating web pages. Layers are NOT a general layout tool and will cause
you much more grief than you ever imagined. Here's one big reason -

http://www.great-web-sights.com/g_layer-overlap.asp

> divs/layers are an excellent tool in Dreamweaver

They are, but only for specialty applications.

> "Is this true or is this
> bregent's personal opinion?"

It is my personal opinion based on seeing hundreds (if not thousands) of new
users throw themselves on their swords as a result of having committed to
pages built with layers, on this very forum.

> Starting over from
> scratch isn't an option and the owner of the website likes my work.

Starting over from scratch need not involve a redesign of the graphics. But
on a site built from layers, it would certainly involve a rethinking of the
layout method. Read this -

http://apptools.com/examples/pagelayout101.php

--
Murray --- ICQ 71997575
Adobe Community Expert
(If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
==================
http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
==================


"Mark 8:36" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:fqsee4$ion$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> [q]Originally posted by: bregent
> >I'm in the process of building a website for a friend who owns a retail
> >gift
> store.
> >The site has a total of 41 pages. The URL is
> >http://www.southerncharmgifts.net
>
> It is unfortunate that you started working on a production site without
> first
> having a grasp of the techniques and tools required. You wouldn't start
> building cabinets until you had a basic knowledge and experience with wood
> and
> woodworking tools, or you'd end up with a large pile of sawdust. And
> unfortunately that's where you are heading with this site. You've made the
> basic mistake of laying out the site using AP divs. AP Divs should be used
> rarely if ever, and only for special purposed. They are not a primary
> layout
> tool. Honestly, I would start over from scratch. But first, spend the next
> few
> weeks or months learning proper layout techniques and working through
> tutorials
> before actually starting on a production site. Good luck.[/q]
>
> Ok, forgive me for doubting what you said here, but this is the first I've
> heard of this. In the limited research and reading I've done in the last
> few
> years I've never heard anyone say this about APdivs. Because I think
> divs/layers are an excellent tool in Dreamweaver. And with the exception
> of my
> background image problem, which probably can be fixed by changing the
> perameters, the only problems with the website are the menus. Everything
> else
> looks good on both IE and Firefox.
>
> So my question for the rest of the forum is: "Is this true or is this
> bregent's personal opinion?" No offense meant bregent, but equating a
> months+
> worth of extremely hard work to sawdust is rather disturbing. I just want
> to
> make sure what you're saying is the general consensus before I take this
> too
> seriously.
>
> Thanks for your input, though. I appreciate your honesty. Starting over
> from
> scratch isn't an option and the owner of the website likes my work. But
> I'll
> keep these things in mind for the future. Take care.
>
>

>No offense meant bregent, but equating a months+ worth of extremely hard work
to sawdust is rather disturbing.

Sorry about the sawdust analogy. Starting over does not mean abandoning all of
the work you have performed. You can certainly keep the graphics, copy, and
look and feel, which I'm sure represents a large part of the work you've put
into this. But I really think that before you invest more time in a flawed
layout, you should stop and fix it. There is no need for web pages that break
whenever a user has different text sizes then you anticipated, or if they
change their viewport size. It's also unclear if you used any techniques to
handle common page elements. You're not using templates, but I can't tell if
you are using SSI. Certainly, a site that has 40+ similar pages should be using
techniques that manage common elements, else you are creating much more work
for yourself.

[q]Originally posted by: Newsgroup User

Your limited research has failed to uncover the essence of proper technique
in creating web pages. Layers are NOT a general layout tool and will cause
you much more grief than you ever imagined. Here's one big reason -

http://www.great-web-sights.com/g_layer-overlap.asp[/q]

Hey, thanks for that site. It's eye-opening to see the text overlapping.
However, 99% of the APdivs in the website I created are .jpgs and not
text. When I went to my site and tried the same trick (adjusting the text
size) nothing happens. No problems in IE. In Firefox the vertical menu text
increased and overlapped the center graphic on the home page
(www.southerncharmgifts.net). So that's a problem. But no overlapping within
a APdiv.

Have I stumbled upon the one exception to the problem with laying out a page
with APdivs? I.e. using images in the APdivs instead of text? I know it's
unorthodox, but if it works I'm all for it. What do you see when you increase
the text size?

[q]Starting over from scratch need not involve a redesign of the graphics.
But
on a site built from layers, it would certainly involve a rethinking of the
layout method. Read this -

http://apptools.com/examples/pagelayout101.php[/q]

I will. Thanks for trying to help!! Obviously there is a better way to do
this. I'll get to work!

Paul
"Mark 8:36"

I basically created all the content that I knew would be on every page and
duplicated it 40x; renaming them all by the page name I desired. All I had to
do was make sure all the links worked. On the secondary pages I would only
open one secondary page and change the image in the center "layer" and "save
as" the page to the product on on the image. Viola! The page is complete.
Now you're going to tell me that I wasted a ton of time, right? LOL! I'm sure
I did. What I'm doing is like fishing with a cane pole off the shore. Ha!

See my last reply Murray regarding the page changing on text increases. It
doesn't happen in IE, but it does in Firefox. (The menu text increases over
the images on the page.)

Thanks!

[q]Originally posted by: bregent
>No offense meant bregent, but equating a months+ worth of extremely hard work
to sawdust is rather disturbing.

Sorry about the sawdust analogy. Starting over does not mean abandoning all of
the work you have performed. You can certainly keep the graphics, copy, and
look and feel, which I'm sure represents a large part of the work you've put
into this. But I really think that before you invest more time in a flawed
layout, you should stop and fix it. There is no need for web pages that break
whenever a user has different text sizes then you anticipated, or if they
change their viewport size. It's also unclear if you used any techniques to
handle common page elements. You're not using templates, but I can't tell if
you are using SSI. Certainly, a site that has 40+ similar pages should be using
techniques that manage common elements, else you are creating much more work
for yourself.[/q]

>The page is complete. Now you're going to tell me that I wasted a ton of time,
right? LOL! I'm sure I did.
>What I'm doing is like fishing with a cane pole off the shore. Ha!

Yes, you made it a lot more difficult than it needed to be. But more
important, you have created a maintenance nightmare. What will happen when your
friend wants a minor change to the menu is either
1) Nothing. It will be too much work for a minor change
2) You'll end up updating 40+ pages manually.
This is one of the primary reasons that web sites become stale. They are just
too much effort to keep fresh. In the future, think about using templates or
server side includes, or a combination of both.

>See my last reply Murray regarding the page changing on text increases. It
doesn't happen in
>IE, but it does in Firefox. (The menu text increases over the images on the
page.)

Actually, this occurs in all browsers, including IE. IE just makes it a little
more difficult but visitors that know how to change the text size in IE (and do
so for visibility reasons) will see the same effect.

> When I went to my site and tried the same trick (adjusting the text
> size) nothing happens. No problems in IE.

Now enable the accessability options in IE and do it again. Blammo.

> Have I stumbled upon the one exception to the problem with laying out a
> page
> with APdivs? I.e. using images in the APdivs instead of text?

Yes, perhaps, but it's still bad form.

Good luck!

--
Murray --- ICQ 71997575
Adobe Community Expert
(If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
==================
http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
==================


"Mark 8:36" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:fqt083$6ie$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> [q]Originally posted by: Newsgroup User
>
> Your limited research has failed to uncover the essence of proper
> technique
> in creating web pages. Layers are NOT a general layout tool and will
> cause
> you much more grief than you ever imagined. Here's one big reason -
>
> http://www.great-web-sights.com/g_layer-overlap.asp[/q]
>
> Hey, thanks for that site. It's eye-opening to see the text overlapping.
> However, 99% of the APdivs in the website I created are .jpgs and
> not
> text. When I went to my site and tried the same trick (adjusting the text
> size) nothing happens. No problems in IE. In Firefox the vertical menu
> text
> increased and overlapped the center graphic on the home page
> (www.southerncharmgifts.net). So that's a problem. But no overlapping
> within
> a APdiv.
>
> Have I stumbled upon the one exception to the problem with laying out a
> page
> with APdivs? I.e. using images in the APdivs instead of text? I know
> it's
> unorthodox, but if it works I'm all for it. What do you see when you
> increase
> the text size?
>
> [q]Starting over from scratch need not involve a redesign of the graphics.
> But
> on a site built from layers, it would certainly involve a rethinking of
> the
> layout method. Read this -
>
> http://apptools.com/examples/pagelayout101.php[/q]
>
> I will. Thanks for trying to help!! Obviously there is a better way to
> do
> this. I'll get to work!
>
> Paul
> "Mark 8:36"
>