"Comp. 792" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:g94078$ar$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Ruby, I know exactly how you feel. I too find CSS painful and I still
> don't see
> the point of it all. Just as soon as we learn CSS they will probably throw
> out
> CSS and tell us to design websites some other way.
>
> I think that the whole CSS thing will eventually be discarded in favor of
> a
> more user friendly approach. CSS is so unintuitive to creative types and
> graphic designers like you and me. It really gets in the way of the
> creative
> process.

In a way, this kind of surprises me, Comp. At a basic level, not talking
about anything fancy here, to me CSS is really not that much different than
creating a style sheet for a vector graphics file, DTP file, or even a Word
file. Are people not using/being taught to use style sheets in their vector
apps, word processing apps, or DTP apps these days? I'm not being accusatory
here, just being curious.

For the future, you should invest in pagepacks or a few solid CSS templates
to get your basic layouts off to a good start. Project VII products are top
notch. A++

Templates:
http://www.projectseven.com/products...ates/index.htm

CSS Layout Magic:
http://www.projectseven.com/products...agic/index.htm

IQ (new DW Extension)
http://www.projectseven.com/products...s/iq/index.htm


--Nancy O.
Alt-Web Design & Publishing
www.alt-web.com


"Ruby7829" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:g92dgo$n77$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> A few years ago I performed web site maintenance for my company. I
decided
> that web design would be a great job for me because I can work from home,
I
> have a degree in graphic design and I really enjoyed the basics of web
> designing. Well, for some reason I cannot grasp CSS. I have created a
great
> mock-up in Fireworks and sliced it to import into DW. I've created my
DIVs and
> now I have a jumbled mess. Things wont sit where I want them to and I know
you
> can't use CSS to position everything on your page. I keep hearing that I
should
> stay away from tables as the hardcore designers say only to use CSS. But
what
> is someone like me to do? I have read the Missing Manual series, I have
taken
> courses on Lynda.com and I have read almost every tip and pointer in the
Adobe
> forums. What can I do to make this easier? I've heard that laying out
your
> page solely in CSS is tough but what else can I do if using tables isn't
the
> "way to go".
>
> I'm ready to give up and I can't. I have two clients who need really
basic
> sites and I can't even get them off the ground. If you have suggestions
on how
> I should lay out my page that will be easiest to learn and still stay
within
> best practices I would appreciate it. I do not want to give up but I'm
> exhausted.
>
> Cheers.
>

I would add P7's 42 Street to that excellent list.

--

Walt


"Nancy O" <nancyoshea1@NOSPAMatt.net> wrote in message
news:g946hv$8c0$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> For the future, you should invest in pagepacks or a few solid CSS
> templates
> to get your basic layouts off to a good start. Project VII products are
> top
> notch. A++
>
> Templates:
> http://www.projectseven.com/products...ates/index.htm
>
> CSS Layout Magic:
> http://www.projectseven.com/products...agic/index.htm
>
> IQ (new DW Extension)
> http://www.projectseven.com/products...s/iq/index.htm
>
>
> --Nancy O.
> Alt-Web Design & Publishing
> www.alt-web.com
>
>
> "Ruby7829" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
> news:g92dgo$n77$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>> A few years ago I performed web site maintenance for my company. I
> decided
>> that web design would be a great job for me because I can work from home,
> I
>> have a degree in graphic design and I really enjoyed the basics of web
>> designing. Well, for some reason I cannot grasp CSS. I have created a
> great
>> mock-up in Fireworks and sliced it to import into DW. I've created my
> DIVs and
>> now I have a jumbled mess. Things wont sit where I want them to and I
>> know
> you
>> can't use CSS to position everything on your page. I keep hearing that I
> should
>> stay away from tables as the hardcore designers say only to use CSS. But
> what
>> is someone like me to do? I have read the Missing Manual series, I have
> taken
>> courses on Lynda.com and I have read almost every tip and pointer in the
> Adobe
>> forums. What can I do to make this easier? I've heard that laying out
> your
>> page solely in CSS is tough but what else can I do if using tables isn't
> the
>> "way to go".
>>
>> I'm ready to give up and I can't. I have two clients who need really
> basic
>> sites and I can't even get them off the ground. If you have suggestions
> on how
>> I should lay out my page that will be easiest to learn and still stay
> within
>> best practices I would appreciate it. I do not want to give up but I'm
>> exhausted.
>>
>> Cheers.
>>
>
>

In most cases they're not that hard to find. It just takes some initiative,
the same thing it takes to get started in web design properly.

--

Walt


"jimmything" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:g949at$bu0$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>I am really interested to see a web page that you big shots have designed.
>No disrespect by using the term big shots, but I think that you know who
>you are.

I tip my hat to all the web designers who do this by choice. This has been very
daunting, and I really had to wrap my head around the idea of 'web development'
as part of my new job. I have great respect and new admiration for the work
that all of you do. Along the line with past jobs I was the go-to-person who
would take the bull by the horns and get the job done... a real "I can do"
attitude. This has fortunately given me a diverse background, though it has
also pigeon holed me into this line of work. I've dabbled in javascript and
HTML in the past and I have other programming knowledge. I'm confident that
HTML and CSS will come to me as I progress with the books I've purchased and
the tours I've taken on the DW and CSS tutorial sites. The code isn't that
different from what I've done in the past, but it's about having the correct
formatting/structure and understanding the language terms to get everything to
display properly. I think learning the code is the biggest hurdle for most
graphic designers to move into web development unless they've had some
experience with code in their past.

So Ruby7829 why not do as JoeyD1978 suggested (for the immediate time) "why
don't you just use tables for now? Once you're ready and you're not actually
under the pressure of deadlines, take it one set at a time." As the others have
stated and what I'm finding out, it'll take time and practice with learning
CSS. Good luck.

> I think that the whole CSS thing will eventually be discarded in favor of
> a
> more user friendly approach. CSS is so unintuitive to creative types and
> graphic designers like you and me. It really gets in the way of the
> creative
> process.

I doubt that very much. CSS is a superb solution for webpages and greatly
enhances the creative process IMHO.

Stylesheets have been around for many years in other apps and are extremely
powerful and flexible. Additionally, they're very lightweight in terms of
code to download in conjunction with a webpage. Being plain text files,
they're also very easy to read.

If you spend a few days really grasping the basics (which is not difficult)
and building on your CSS knowledge step-by-step, you'll end up wondering why
you found them so difficult initially.

True, debugging CSS can be an intensely frustrating prcoess at times,
especially if you roll your own from scratch. But there are so many CSS
tools available today (which help with both creating and debugging CSS) and
so many libraries of rock solid CSS rules and templates available that you
can be off and running building very creative projects in minimal time.

--
Regards

John Waller

[q]Originally posted by: Comp. 792
Ruby, I know exactly how you feel. I too find CSS painful and I still don't
see the point of it all. Just as soon as we learn CSS they will probably throw
out CSS and tell us to design websites some other way.

I think that the whole CSS thing will eventually be discarded in favor of a
more user friendly approach. CSS is so unintuitive to creative types and
graphic designers like you and me. It really gets in the way of the creative
process. Every CSS tutorial I've seen just shows very unimaginative and boring
web page design. I've never seen a really well designed site using CSS, but
have seen a lot of professionally designed sites using tables.

I designed 6 beautiful websites in another web software. It was actually quite
easy and fun to design these websites and I get many compliments on their
design and functionality. But do you think I can even get started in DW even
after much much reading and tutorials I still find DW to be painful. With DW I
can't even figure out the first steps of CSS. DW is so unintuitive and I cringe
every time I use DW. Web design used to be fun but now using DW takes all of
the fun out of it.

I don't know if DW 4 is any better, but I hope so.

Sorry to be so negative, but I really am frustrated at the whole thing!

[/q]

This is about learning programming code to make the artistic graphics display
nicely in a webpage. As Dooza said "I personally think the graphic designers
should work with web developers to create websites, there is just too much
going on for the average person to learn over night." DW, HTML and CSS isn't
for everyone! I used to teach at a local college courses in MS applications,
etc. and a separate Access course. My opening line for Access was "it's not
for everyone", and so, not everyone will grasp how to create or learn the
workings of a relational database. It comes down to the aptitude ability of
the graphic designer to grasp the coding concept. As with being a "logical
thinker" or "critical thinker", one of those will have it easier learning DW,
HTML or CSS. It's just something that you'll have to accept... DW will not be
the Photoshop, AI, InDesign tool that you can click and drag your way through.
DW is a programming tool for web developers, the same as Access, Oracle and SQL
is for database developers.

I have to admit that I came to this forum today contemplating starting a
similar thread, so I'm relieved to know that it's not just me having trouble
transitioning to DW and CSS. Having watched countless tutorials and poured over
the "Missing Manual," I thought I had a grasp of the general idea until it came
time to build my own site. I've used GoLive for years and frankly found the
drag-and-drop approach to be mighty quick and intuitive. A very basic page I
could put together in a half hour in GoLive is still a mess in Dreamweaver.

I do see the advantage of using CSS -- in fact, that's what motivated me to
finally devote the time to try and learn it, because there were limitations in
what I could do in GoLive -- but I do find the interface and overall concept to
be cumbersome and unintuitive, especially coming from something as obvious as
GoLive.

It seems to me that past web design software did a good job of accommodating
both the visual folks and the hand-coders, but this iteration of Dreamweaver
tips the balance in favor of the CSS and code-savvy. There's nothing wrong with
that, but for those of us who prefer to work in a visual way instead of trying
to imagine things as letters and numbers, or divs and classes, it's a rough
road and it gets pretty frustrating. My ridiculously simple site that is just a
header, sidebar, and main content with a spry widget is coming together after
days of struggle but there are still weird things like alignment and so on that
I just can't seem to reconcile. I feel like a moron! <:-)

I love the idea of having someone turn my site into CSS for me so I could see
the code and learn from it; in fact, I've been thinking of doing just that for
days. Now if I could only find someone willing to do it for dirt cheap, since I
barter for web design?

Anyway, just wanted to throw in my two cents and say thanks for the
suggestions.

<I think that the whole CSS thing will eventually be discarded in favor of a
more user friendly approach...>

I can't imagine where you got this idea. CSS is going to be around for a
very long-time. CSS-3 is already receiving browser support. So you might
want to have a look at what's coming. http://www.css3.info/preview/

<I've never seen a really well designed site using CSS, but have seen a lot
of professionally designed sites using tables.>

<shaking head in disbelief> www.csszengarden.com I rest my case.
</shaking head>

Seriously, if you're having so much trouble with DW and CSS, you should go
back to using the software you are comfortable with. The code it generates
may not be perfect, but if you and your clients can live with it, keep using
it. There's no law that says you have to use DW.

--Nancy O.
Alt-Web Design & Publishing
www.alt-web.com
<snipped to save space>

Ruby, it's a cliche but "I feel your pain". I learned DW about 8 years ago and
I refer to that time as Dreamweaver Hell. I spent about a week sitting at my
computer doing nothing but learning DW out of a book called "The Dreamweaver
Bible". I had many moments of cursing and wanting to throw my computer through
the window, but it was definitely worth it. DW really is the best. Don't give
up - hang in there.